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1、exhalesgrunts,cries你好啊施图茨manWhatsup,Stutz?-嗨乔纳StutzHi,Jonah.chuckles好吧有啥新鲜事说来听听-StutzOkay,entertainme.-bothlaugh每次坐下来你就是这么说的JonahThatsactuallywhatyousaywhenIsitdown.我对大家都是这么说的ItswhatIsaytoeverybody.是去找你做治疗的时候不是拍片的时候Yeah,whenwehaveatherapysessionthatsnotfilmedforamovie.你还常说一句话总是逗我发笑真的很棒StutzlaughsThe
2、.theotherthingyou.yousaythatalwayscracksmeup,whichisgreat,就是“你最好别来这里把自己的包袱全丢给我”is,Youbetternotcomeinhereanddumpallyourshitonme.是啊你把包袱往我这里丢已经丢了很多年了No,yeah,youknow,youvebeendumpingitonmeforyears,我累了andmtired.Jonahchuckles好了说回正题Well,hereweare.你觉得我为什么要拍这部关于你的电影？Whydoyouthinkmmakingthismovieaboutyou?我觉得是
3、因为我的想法Ithinkit,s.itsmyideas.因为我的想法对你产生了影响I.Ithinkmyideashadaneffectonyou,所以你想让其他人也接触到这些想法andIthinkyouwantedtoexposeotherpeopletotheideas.也许Andmaybe.我不知道也许你只是企图控制我或者Idontknow,maybeitsjustanattempttogaincontroloverme,or.Jonahlaughs我不确定是为什么呢？mnotsure.Whydidyou?对我决定拍这部电影是因为我想把你的工具Yeah,Ihavedecidedtomake
4、thisbecauseIwanttopresentyourtools以及我的医师菲尔施图茨你的教诲andtheteachingsofyou,PhilStutz,mytherapist,以一种让人们能够接触并利用inawaythatallowspeopletoaccessthem来使自己的生活变得更好的方式呈现出来andusethemtomaketheirownlifebetter.所以我想花一天时间拍摄我们的一次对话SoIthoughtwewouldjustfilmonesessioninoneday介绍你的一些工具对我的人生极有帮助的工具andcoversomeofyourtoolsthat
5、havebeenmosthelpfulformeinmylife.我觉得挺不错Ithinkthatsgood.同时也想用这部电影Anddoitinawaythatalsohonors,向我深深在乎且尊重的人的一生致敬um,thelifeofsomebodythatIdeeplycareaboutandrespect.好的Okay.但你偶尔幽默一下行不行？Butcanyoubefunnyonceinawhile?Just.-laughs-LovesickBluesbyMasonRamseyplays施图茨的疗愈之道你通常问病人的第一个问题是什么？JonahWhatsusuallythefirst
6、questionyouaskanewpatient?问的第一件事是“你想要什么？来这里是为了什么？”ThefirstthingIaskthemis,Whatdoyouwant?Whyareyouhere?一般的精神科医师会说“不要干涉病人的过程Theaverageshrinkwillsay,Dontintrudeonthepatientsprocess.等他们准备好了自然会有答案”Theywillcomeupwiththeanswerswhentheyreready.”烂透了那是不可接受的Thatsucks.Thatsnotacceptable.我入这行的时候精神科治疗强调的是医师的中立Whe
7、nIgotintopsychiatry,themodelwas,mneutral.1“我只是个旁观者我的个人利益不受影响”mjustwatching.Ihavenodoginthisfight.治疗过程是非常缓慢的病人们受尽折磨Itwasaveryslowprocess,andtherewasalotofsuffering.你懂我的我的反应就是Youknowme,myreactionwillbe,“那去死吧你跟我开玩笑呢？”Thengofuckyourself.Areyoukiddingme?如果我面对的是害怕自己好不起来的抑郁症患者laughsIfmdealingwithsomeonewit
8、hdepressionlikethat,那我会说“完全按照我他妈说的去做”whosafraidwontrecover,Isay,DowhatthefuckItellyou.DoexactlywhatItellyou.“我保证你会感觉好点我百分之百保证”Iguaranteeyoullfeelbetter.Guarantee,100%.Itsonme.当我走进你的办公室的时候我们坐下来JonahWhenIwalkedintoyouroffice,wesatdown,你就告诉我“你应该这么做”andyouwerejustlike,Here,swhatyoushoulddo.你给了我可以采取的行动你给
9、了我一个工具Yougavemesomeformofaction.Yougavemeatool.对这是必须的Yeah,its.it,simperative.我想要速度Iwantedspeedinthis.不是在一周内把人治好的速度那是不可能的Notspeedtocuresomebodyinaweek.Thatsimpossible.而是想让患者感受到一些变化ButIwantedthemtofeelsomechange,一些前进的动力someforwardmotion.这给予他们希望让他们知道这实际上是可能的Itgivesthemhope.Itslike,Oh,shit,thatsactually
10、possible.那公什么是工具？Sowhatarethetools?工具是能够立即实时地改变Atoolissomethingthatcanchangeyourstate,yourinnerstate,你的内在状态的东西immediately,inrealtime.它把通常为不愉快的经历Ittakesanexperiencethatsnormallyunpleasant,转化为机会thenitturnsitintoanopportunity.工具改变你的情绪Toolschangeyourmood并且让你看到自己的情绪不会一直糟卜去的希望andthenjustgiveyouasenseofhop
11、ethatthatwontbeyourmoodforever.没错StutzThatscorrect.基本上就是你在那一刻JonahIt,sbasicallyareal-timevisualizationexercise在脑海里进行的一种实时可视化练习youdoinyourheadatthatmoment.对从这个意义上说我是个老师Yeah.Sointhatsense,mateacher.我教病人如何使用它也教他们什么时候使用它mteachingthepersonhowtouseitandalsoteachthemwhentodoit.你所有的病人包括我自己在内都有这些笔记卡Allofyour
12、patients,myselfincluded,wehaveallthesenotecards.你在笔记卡上画了我们在治疗中所用到的工具StutzlaughsJonahAndtheyredrawingsofthetoolsthatyoudoinoursessions让我们带回家去thatwetakehomeandkeep.我倾向于从视觉角度进行思考StutzItendtothinkinvisualterms.所以便开始画这些卡片纯粹是为了自己SoIstarteddrawingthesecardsreallyformyself但它们给病人带来了极大的帮助butithelpedthepatient
13、stremendously.卡片的力量在于它们把宏大的想法转化为简单的图像Thepowerofthecardsisthattheyturnbigideasintosimpleimages.这是一种与病人沟通的方式Itwasawayofcommunicatingwiththepatient我觉得这种方式比语言更有力thatIactuallyfeltwasmorepowerfulthanusingwords.病人拿出卡片的那一刻Themomenttheytakeoutthecard,我和他之间就有了联♥系♥有了纽带there,saconnectionbetweenthe
14、twoofus.Theresabond.对我俩有一种独特的个人关系Yeah,Wehaveauniquelypersonalrelationship.独特到你愿意让我拍一部关于你的电影Somuchsothatyourelettingmemakeafilmaboutyou.这是我在治疗界从未经历过的事情Thatissomethingveneverexperiencedinthetherapeuticworld.最终我的生活因为有你的帮助而得到了巨大的改善And,ultimately,mylifehasgottenimmeasurablybetterasaresultofworkingwithyou
15、,所以如果对我有效也许对其他人也会有效andso,ifitworkedforme,maybeitwillworkforotherpeople.-alarmblares-Um.对了到时间吃药了Oh,yeah.Timeformedicine.-到时间做什么？到时间吃药了-Timeforwhat?-JonahTimetotakeyourmedicine.-哦谢谢-闹钟响了-Oh,thanks.-JonahThealarmwentoff.哎呀StutzOh,shit.grunts乔纳要不要和我一起嗑点帕金森病的药？Jonah,youwanttodosomeParkinsonsdrugswithme?J
16、onahlaughs我多年前就戒掉那玩意儿了Ikickedthestuffyearsago,man.你知道吗？我年轻时也嗑过药StutzYouknow,whenIwasakid,whenIwasusingdrugs,如果那时候你告诉我50年后的我得吃这么多药ifyouevertoldme,50yearshenceyoudbetakingallthismedicine.所以这些都是治疗你的帕金森病的药？SothatsallmedicineforyourParkinsons?对Yeah.得了帕金森病的最大问题在于WithParkinson,s,thebiggestthingis,andtheres
17、somethinggoodaboutthis,很多小事情你都必须预先计划好但这也有好处youhavetopreplanalotoflittlethings.当我要下床的时候WhenIhavetogetoutofbed,身体必须经过一番扭曲才能下床Ihavetogothroughcontortionstogetoutofthebed.对我来说人生中最困难的事莫过于早上起床Thehardestthingformeinlifeisgettingoutofbedinthemorning.但原因截然不同不同对-Butforverydifferentreasons.-Fordifferent.chuckl
18、esYeah.是啊So,beforemeetingyou,myexperiencewiththerapywasverytraditional在遇见你之前我的治疗经历都是非常传统的就是我在倾诉inthesenseofIwouldbetalking然后对方会说“这让你有何感受？”或者“有意思”andthepersonwouldsay,Howdoesthatfeel?-OnInteresting.laughs-StutzRight.基本上与我保持着巨大的距离Basicallykeepingmeatamassivedistance.我就在想在传统的治疗中Yeah.JonahAndIwasthinkin
19、gabouthow,intraditionaltherapy,你付钱给这个人然后把问题都扔给他们yourepayingthisperson,andyousaveallofyourproblemsforthem,他们就只管倾听andtheyjustlisten,而你的白♥痴♥朋友们andyourfriends,whoareidiots,-却给你建议-是giveyouadvice.-不请自来的建议-是-StutzYes.-Unsolicited.可你只希望你的朋友们能倾听-StutzYes.-Andyouwantyourfriendsjusttolisten.而你希望你
20、的医师能给你建议11aughsAndyouwantyourtherapisttogiveyouadvice.事情是这样的医师们并不是不想帮你Heresthething.Theshrinks,itsnotthattheydontwanttohelpyou.真的不是It,sreallynot.但对我来说我总觉得还缺了点什么Butforme,Ialwaysfelttherewassomethingmissing.所以工具是一座桥梁Soatoolisabridge把你从意识到问题是什么以及问题背后的原因betweenwhatyourealizetheproblemisandthecauseofthep
21、roblem带到这里tooverhere,对症状至少有一定程度的控制actuallygainingatleastsomecontroloverthesymptom.这一切都与可能性有关Itallhastodowithpossibility.不是什么狗屁定义的可能性Andnotabullshitdefinitionofpossibility.可能性意味着你感觉到自己的反应不一样了Possibilitymeansyoufeelyourselfreactingdifferently.这听起来Itsounds,um.怎么说来着？听起来很陈腐但这是事实Whatdoyoucallit?Trite.Buti
22、fsactuallythetruth.你首先让我做的事是提升自己的生命力JonahOneofthefirstthingsyougotmeworkingonwasmylifeforce.那是可以直接改变你的生活的工具Thatwassuchanimmediatethingthatcanchangeyourlife而且我觉得任何人都可以轻松掌握andsomethingthatIthinkanyonecaneasilylatchonto.提升生命力是我迈向疗愈的第一步Anditwasthefirststepformeinbeginningtheprocessofgettingbetter.没错典型的情
23、况是这样的Yeah,that,scorrect.Here,stheclassicthingthathappens.一个很抑郁的病人来到我的办公室他告诉我Aguysdepressed,hecomesintomyoffice,andhesays,“我知道我有很多坏习惯我知道我没纪律我知道我很懒Iknowmyhabitsareshit!.!.Iknowmundisciplined.Iknowmlazy.但要是我知道我应该做些什么ButifIonlyknewwhatIwassupposedtobedoing,我的人生使命是什么whatmymissionwasinlife,essentially,dbe
24、likeIwasshotoutofagun.那我肯定会干劲满满但我不知道我应该做些什么ButIdontknowwhatmsupposedtobedoing,所以就懒懒散散什么也不做”somjustgonnabelazyanddonothing.接着抑郁症自然就找上门来了Then,fromthat,obviouslycomesthedepression.这一工具适用于你Theressomethingthat.thatwillapplytoyou以及所有失去方向或者不知道下一步该怎么走的人andtoanybodyelsewhodoesnthaveasenseofdirectionordoesntk
25、nowwhattheyshoulddonext,那就是提升自己的生命力andtheansweris,youcanalwaysworkonyourlifeforce.（生命力）pianomusicplays要想知道自己该做些什么要想认清自己只有一个方法Theonlywaytofindoutwhatyoushouldbedoing,likewhoyouare,那就是激活你的生命力istoactivateyourlifeforce,因为当你迷失方向的时候becauseyourlifeforceistheonlypartofyou只有你的生命力能够引导你thatactuallyiscapableofg
26、uidingyouwhenyourelost.如果把它想象成一个金字塔生命力可分为三个层次Ifyouthinkofitasapyramid,there,sthreelevelsofthelifeforce.最底层是你与你的身体的关系Thebottomlevelisyourrelationshipwithyourphysicalbody.（人际）Thesecondlayerisyourrelationshipwithotherpeople.最顶层是你与自己的关系Andthehighestlevelisyourrelationshipwithyourself.底层代表的是你与你的身体的关系Theb
27、ottomstepisyourrelationshiptoyourphysicalbody.你需要做的就是让身体更好地运作这是肯定有效的Allyougottadoisgetyourbodyworkingbetter,anditalwaysworks.最常见的情况就是缺乏运动Themostclassicthingisthey,renotexercising.另一个是饮食习惯Dietisanotherone,还有睡眠andsleeping.在能使自己精神状况好转的因素中Sowhatpercentageofthatstuff改善身体健康占多少比例？iswhatmakesyouactuallyfeel
28、betteratfirst?刚开始的时候Well,whenitstartsout,大概85%it,sprobably85%.非常高It,sveryhigh.太他妈夸张了JonahHowfuckingcrazyisthat?我小的时候WhenIwasakid,运动和饮食这两个词对我来说exerciseanddietwasframedtomeinlike,就像是暗示我身材有问题一样Theressomethingwrongwithhowyoulook.从来没有人从心理健康的角度Butneveroncewasexerciseordiet向我提出过多运动或注意饮食的建议propositionedtome
29、intermsofmentalhealth.我只是希望人们没被灌输这样的概念Ijustwishthatwaspresentedtopeopledifferently.是Yeah.因为这给我造成了很多问题JonahBecause,forme,thatcausedalotofproblems甚至影响了我和妈妈的关系andevenproblemswithmeandmymom.她的建议激起了我的强烈反抗Ireallymether,like,withanattitudeOf“去你的我才不要你这是在说我有问题”Fuckyou,Idontwanttodothat,becauseyouresayingther
30、essomethingwrongwithme.嗯？解释一下Yeah?Explainthat.我可以解释但我不想详说因为这部电影的主角是你不是我Um,Ican,butmnotgonnagointoit,causethismovieisaboutyou,notme.但如果我说你说得越详细Butwhatif1saidthemoreyouelaborateonit,我就越容易找到症结所在呢？theeasieritsgonnabeformetotakesomechances.你有没有这样想过？Didyoueverthinkofitlikethat?我会说你应该拍一部关于我的电影Iwouldsayyous
31、houldmakeamovieaboutme,而不是让我拍一部关于你的电影insteadofmemakingamovieaboutyou.bothlaugh说得好Yeah,thatsagoodone.好所以这就是第一层Okay.Sothatsthefirstlevel.下一层是你与其他人的关系Thenextoneisyourrelationshiptootherpeople,当人们抑郁的时候其实并不会终止自己的人际关系causewhenpeoplegetdepressed,itsnotthattheyendtheirrelationships.只是像一艘消失在地平线上的船一样It,slikea
32、shipdisappearingoverthehorizon.他们开始脱离生活Theystarttogetpulledback,awayfromtheirlife,而人际关系就像andrelationshipsareIike-你知道攀岩时用的岩钉吧？Youknowthosethingswhenyoureclimbingamountain,poundingthosepitons,它们就像把手itslikeahandhold.你的人际关系就像把手帮助你把自己重新拉回到生活中Soyourrelationshipsarelikehandholdstoletyourselfgetpulledbackin
33、tolife.关键是你必须采取主动Thekeyofitisyouhavetotaketheinitiative.如果你静等对方主动那你就不明白这其中的道理Ifyourewaitingforthemtothetaketheinitiative,youdontunderstand.你可以邀请某人一起吃午饭就算你觉得他无聊也没关系Youcouldinvitesomebodyouttolunchthatyoudontfindinteresting,不管怎样都会给你带来积极的影响itdoesntmatter,itwillaffectyouanyway,inapositiveway.从象征意义上说那个人代
34、表了整个人类Thatpersonrepresentsthewholehumanrace,symbolically.所以这就是中间层最顶层代表的是你与你自己的关系Sothatsthemiddletier,andthehighesttierisyourrelationshipwithyourself.（自己）Thebestwaytosayitistogetyourselfinarelationshipwithyourunconscious.最好的解释是你必须与自己的潜意识建立关系因为要想知道自己的潜意识里有什么就得先把它激活becausenobodyknowswhatsintheirunconsc
35、iousunlesstheyactivateit.关于这点有个诀窍那就是写作Andonetrickaboutthisiswriting.这是非常神奇的一件事It,sreallyamagicalthing.写作能让你增进与自己的关系Youenhanceyourrelationshipwithyourselfbywriting.有些人会说Somepeoplesay,Well,writewhat?“写什么？我不感兴趣我又不是作家”mnotinteresting.mnotawriter.Itdoesntmatter.这都无所谓Ifyoustarttowrite,thewritingislikeamir
36、ror.当你开始写作你的文字就像一面镜子它反映了你无意识里IE在发生的事情Itreflectswhatsgoingoninyourunconscious,如果你以日志的形式写作andthingswillcomeoutifyouwriteinjournalform那些你不知道自己知道的事全都会一一浮现thatyoudidntknowthatyouknew.这就是生命力的三个层次Thesearethethreelevelsofthelifeforce.如果你迷失了方向不要试图去弄明白Ifyourelost,donttrytofigureitout.随它去先在你的生命力上下功夫1.etitgoand
37、workonyourlifeforcefirst.这关乎热忱Itsaboutpassion.提升你的生命力Increasingyourlifeforce这样你就能找到你真正的热忱所在soyoucanfindoutwhatyourereallypassionateabout.但第一步是要热衷于与自己的生命力建立联♥系♥Butsteponeistobepassionateaboutconnectingtoyourownlifeforce,这是人人都能做到的andanybodycandothat.只要搞定了金字塔其他一切似乎就会水到渠成JonahIfIjustdothat
38、pyramid,everythingelseseemstofallintoplace?对其他一切自会水到渠成Itwill.Everythingelsewillfallinplace.这些你都是怎么想出来的？JonahSohowdoyoucomeupwiththisstuff?我以前有位导师那时候我还很年轻Well,Ioncehadasupervisor-Iwasveryyoung.甚至都还没开设自己的诊所Ididntevenhavemyownpracticeyet.当时我会跟病人聊他们30年前经历过的事mtalkingtopeopleaboutwhathappened30yearsagoint
39、heirlife或者他们的问题的根源orwhatwasthecauseoftheirproblem.可他们走的时候跟进来的时候一样Theywouldwalkoutthesamewaytheywalkedin,感觉糟糕透顶绝望不已feelinglikeshitandbasicallyhopeless.所以我就跟导师说SoIsaidtohim,我们能做些什么让他们尽快♥感♥觉好一点吗？,Isthereanythingwecandosothattheycanfeelbetter,至少感觉到点什么？feelsomethingatleast,sooner?1那个家伙却跟我说A
40、ndtheguy.chucklesTheguysaystome,“你想都别想”Dontyoudare,hesays.这个人似乎根本就不了解人的境况Itwaslikesomebodywhofundamentallydidntunderstandthehumancondition.我说“等等我们必须在当下那一刻做点什么”Isaid,Wait,wehavetodosomethingrightatthemoment.不一定要解决他们所有的问题Itdoesnthavetosolvealltheirproblems,但必须让他们感觉到他们此时此刻就可以改变butyouhavetogivesomebodyt
41、hefeelingthattheycanchangerightnow.我不希望病人一无所获地走出我的办公室Ididntwantpeoplewalkingoutofmyofficewithnothing.你是否担心过这种策略会让他们采取错误的行动？Didyoueverworry,withthatstrategy,youdgivethemthewrongpieceofaction?没有No.在这个领域正如我常说的Inthisarea,as1alwayssay,我只是个普通人没什么特别的除了这一点mjustaregularperson,nothingunusual,exceptforthis.我能把
42、焦点对准你然后把其他一切都屏蔽掉Izoominonyou,andIblockouteverythingelse.打从小时候起人们就经常主动找我倾诉SinceIwasalittlekid,peoplehavealwayswalkeduptome我一个十岁小毛头成年人却过来找我倾诉andtoldmetheirproblems.Alittlekid.Iwouldbetenyearsold,andagrownmanwouldcomeuptome.这些人♥大♥多数我甚至都不认识MostofthemIdidntevenknow.Theyrejustpouringtheirhea
43、rtsout.谁知道那是怎么回事Whoknowswherethatcomesfrom.melancholicmusicplays我5岁前一直住在布朗克斯区后来我们搬到了曼哈顿IwasintheBronxtillIwasfive.ThenwemoveddowntoManhattan.曼哈顿的哪里？JonahWhereinManhattan?最初搬到百老汇大街西78街215号♥Thefirstplacewas78thandBroadway.215West78thStreet.都是些中产阶级、辛勤工作的普通人Itwasregular,middle-class,workingpeople
44、.我爸爸是个好男人Myfatherwasaveryniceguy.他性格直爽有主见Hewasloud,opinionated.他热爱交际Helovedtoentertain.要是他说了算他每天晚上都会请人到家里做客Ifitwasuptohim,hewouldhavepeopleovertothehouseeverysinglenight,我妈妈讨厌这样andshehatedit.妈妈告诉我在布朗克斯区一个阳光明媚的下午Mymothertoldme,shesaid,onabeautifulsunnydayintheBronx,一大群孩子正在街上玩耍atrillionkidsoutplayingi
45、nthestreets,而她最喜欢做的事就是呆在屋里看书shetoldmeherfavoritethingwastostayindoorsandreadabook.她的想法是“别来烦我离我远一点Herthingwas,Stayoffmycase.Stayawayfromme.我想迷失在这本书里因为生活太痛苦了Iwanttogetlostinthisbookbecauselifeistoopainful.,我不想面对生活我只想面对这本书”Idontwannadealwithlife.Iwannadealwiththisbook.可想而知这两人之间存在着很大的问题Soyoucanseetheset
46、wopeople,therewasbigproblems.那是什么时候？是1950年代吗？JonahWhattimeperiod?The,50s?对应该是1956年Yeah.Thatwas,like,uh756.Itsprobably.我想想他哪年去世的来着？1.etssee,he-Whendidhedie?melancholicmusiccontinues你已经去世的弟弟叫什么名字？JonahWhatwasyourbrothersnamewhopassedaway?已经去世的那个弟弟叫埃迪StutzHisnamewasEddie.Theonethatdied,yeah.他们一眼就看出来了Theyknewimmedi
